Ok, I'll bite

[Sinfonian]

Ok, I'll bite, what's permaculture? I admit I could easily look it up online, but I figure a quick answer from someone knowledgable could be beneficial to others here. It might even spark a conversation in this sadly empty forum section.

So, if you, like me, don't know what it is, what do you THINK it means? To me, it's permanent culture. Or something like working native plants into your landscaping. Somehow I doubt I'm right, but I bet I get a reply to it...:)

[Garden Green]

Alrighty Sinfonian, I'll bite back!

As I spent the first part of my life on a farm, my earliest memories are of weeding the garden with my mother. The garden was a little under a acre in size and we pretty much traded and shared with everyone. So the idea of community sustainability has been with me since I was a little kid. But....

Permaculture was coined by an Australian gentlemen, whose name eludes me at the moment, back in the '70's who was looking for a way to basically turn a piece of land into a permanent garden (this is the simplified version). Anyway, he and a colleague or two got together and started looking for sustainable ways to live and thus became the first to use the phrase permaculture. Permaculture is basically permanent agriculture with ideas on sustainability and conservation based in a community. He took his concepts from Franklin King who is the one that coined the phrase Permanent Agriculture in the early 1900's.

The idea of permanent sustainable living took off in a few communities then and the students of the original Aussie pioneers of permaculture spread the ideas and concepts and then by around the early '90's the concept had been established all over the world.

It has evolved over the years as most things do. For example, there are several groups that have created permaculture that would act like a naturally occurring forest. Trees, shorter plants and shrubs, ground cover, fungi, and such. But all of it is used for sustainability; food, bee attracting plants, pest repelling plants, plants used for their fibers, etc. You get the picture.

I guess permaculture to me is the ability to sustain oneself with the available renewable resources at hand. It can be on small scales like back yard gardeners or it can be on much larger scales like the permaculture group on Orca Island, Washington who have dedicated acres of land and their lives to the idea of permanent sustainability or a group in Texas that turned a warehouse and the warehouse parking lot into a beautiful community garden site dedicated to teaching the concepts of sustainable living.

So there it is. :D

[gardengirl72]

Thank you so much for taking the bait! Permacultue was started by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in Australia. That is a great way of summing it all up Green. What is most cool and influential to me is the idea of zones on your property and how to design your home as part of nature.

It is also about working within you community. For example as people begin to specialize, you have a family that trades their honey, for blueberrys from another.

It is the only way, that I have seen, that will get us through the economic and environmental hard times we are going to face this century.

[Sinfonian]

Thanks, I figured an ignorant post or two would spark dialogue which would be good for the topic. Especially finding out what it is about. I love the idea of a permanent garden. It's what I've done using SFG techniques and edible landscaping learned from Patti. And my family shares what we do to each their own skill set. It's a start. It's fun and I'm looking forward to getting better at it. Thanks!

[gardengirl72]

Check out permaculture design principles on Wiki, and you will probably find you are doing it anyway.

[herb girl]

Okay, how about a good book recommendation?
Patti, your a book-a-holoic...............

[Mikeeeeeeeeee]

Okay, how about a good book recommendation?
Patti, your a book-a-holoic...............


If you really want a good book that covers a lot on permaculture, read The Chicken Tractor by Andy Lee.
He goes into detail about all forms of mulching, non tillage, etc.
Good read.

[gardengirl72]

I agree, Chicken Tractor is how I was introduced to the concepts. But also anything by Joel Saladin, not the he calls himself a permaculture guy, but he is.

[ohiogardener]

I have a question about permaculture. Im reading a book called "Earth User's guide to Permaculture", and if may answer the question eventually, but here goes anyway...sorry in advance for the length..

If you want to create an ecosystem in your backyard, with canopy, shrubs, ground cover, etc... how can you find plants that will grow in other-than full sun. For instance, can I grow blueberries under my pine trees that are trimmed up the lower 8 feet? Will strawberries grow there, or under other trees? I guess my disconnect is that in gardening catalogs and magazines, almost everything is classified as "sun" or "full sun". I only have a small area that is full sun..

A lot of gardening advice I've gotten has also lead me to beleive that the southern or western part of my property-which is my backyard- is the best place to grow veggies. I read that in permaculture you try to "corrall" the sunlight. I have a large eastern side-yard (maybe 20 feet wide by 40 feet long) that I would like to use, but Im so unsure of whether it would be a good idea...

Im in the suburbs, but I know you dont have to have vast space to grow things- in the city, buildings cast shadow...for instance, figs are said to need lots of sun and heat, but my dad lives in Hackensack, nj, in a congested area. He has a small square of a yard surrounded by buildings, and it is completely surrounded in huge, wonderful fig trees. Im thinking the concrete/pavement provide protection from cold, but what about sun?

Can you guys give me some advice as to how to assess sunlight? I would apperciate any help you can give me SO MUCH! Thanks!

[Garden Green]

Well, certainly, you could use the sun sticks that Patty has in one of her videos to measure your sun exposure. Or you could try placing potted plants in areas that are questionable so that you can move them if they show signs of stress.

[ohiogardener]

Thanks! I'll try the potted plant experiment next year.I did see the sunstick video, after I posted my novel of a post- DOH! I may get some of them, but in addition, I hope to gain a real understanding of the way sunlight works in my environment, and of the plants I choose to grow here. I found the following tip on another site, and I plant to test the theory next year: "Basically, a good rule to remember is that if you grow a plant for the fruit or the root, it needs full sun. If you grow it for the leaves, stems, or buds, shade is just fine." (Im not sure if I am allowed to link the article, so Im just posting the basic blanket statement) The article did point out the the "shady" shot should have 3-6 hours sunlight, min.

I also did read that blueberries grow well in dappled shade. I hope so, I realy want to plant them with my trimmed pine trees!

[Ilvpermaculture]

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture By Toby Hemenway. Is an AWSOME book. And the the second edition has some cool sections for people that live in the city. Even though I live in the country. ;)

And the book, PERMACULTURE: A Designers' Manual by Bill Mollison. Is a good overview. But, Gaia's garden book is more for a temperate climate.

When there is a suggestion for putting say, strawberries under a fruit tree. The reason why they are saying, to put a full sun plant under a tree, is because the tree is small, and the canopy receives more sunlight. Once your tree is more mature, and casts more shade. Then you have to switch to a part sun, or shade plant. The plants acts as a living mulch, and help keep the roots cool. As long as they are shallow rooted. They can also add nutrients if you use something like clover.
If blueberries require full sun, then they would not be good to plant under a mature pine, that is shade most of the day.