a chicken in every yard

[Cynthia]

check this out

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5900

[Fred's Fine Fowl]

This movement will and already has, get the attention of Big Poultry... the industry will move to establish laws against the back yard birder.

Not surprisingly, they will focus on the potential for disease and un-registered, un-monitored flocks will be outlawed... it's a game they will always play. They know the health threat is a card they can easily present, causing a public outcry. H5N1 isn't the only disease they may draw upon to shut down the open poultry system... H5N7 for example, caused a mass poultry eradication in my state, in years past. The primary threat is to birds, not people... but watch how it's presented.

I really liked the description of a mobile dressing out business... where a vehicle would go through a neighborhood and dress out your chickens while you wait? I can't think of many who raise chickens for meat, who wouldn't take advantage of such a convenient service.

I'll be very interested in seeing how all this pans out in years to come. People who keep chickens and other traditional farm birds, will have to do it cleanly, humanely and keep their grounds tidy... you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Look at your own operation from a Dept. of Health perspective...

Expect those against, to locate and showcase the worst setup... this is what the public will see. Sadly, opinions are formed quickly.

Even the Vice President, or possibly the Secretary of the American Poultry Association lost his entire chicken operation when new comers, purchased adjacent land to his and soon had enough clout to shut him down. Establishing new regulations that he had not the funds to fight... so, in the end, he was forced to move from his farm. Never underestimate those who think poultry has no place in suburbia. Even our country landscapes are being inhabited by those who once lived in cities, only to demand that city regulations be adopted by the country dwellers.

[Cynthia]

thanks for your insight!

[Urbanhomesteader]

I am new to the forum ... so if I am asking a repeat question... please bear with me.. I have a question for you.. I hope you can help me with

[Urbanhomesteader]

Geez.. I have a lot to learn.. I have no idea what happened to my full question on my post? Yikes! Anyhow.. hopefully this will come through on my second attempt. Sorry...

I have a question for you.. I hope you can help me with

[Cynthia]

look at the bottom of your posts - once they are published, there is an "edit" button on the right side - you can click that and correct anything that doesn't look right - I use it all the time :)

[MoniDew]

I am amazed that people living in huge cities (like Boston) are able to raise poultry and other livestock within the "city limits." Out here in FARM country :rolleyes: we have a law that you cannot raise barnyard animals within the city limits. So, I can't have a chicken coop, goats, etc, unless I move to the country. I can have a rabbit hutch, but I cannot raise them to eat, just as a pet.

[plantoneonme]

I am hearing more and more of people going underground, so to speak, in order to provide home raised meat for the table in the burbs. I have been looking into getting a couple hens for eggs and know that if I get caught the hens will have to go. I have been researching city ordinances about what can and cannot be raised in our area and anything considered a "farm animal" is not allowed. There has been a lot of discussion on quail and so far I cannot see anything against them as they are, in my opinion, considered a wild animal much like deer.

I guess it is how you look at rabbits. Yes they are pets but to some they are considered food. How would a city/town know if you just love rabbits so much you have a couple dozen as "pets" or in fact you are raising them as food. If I were raising them for food I certainly would not tell anyone about it and if anyone inquires I would offer to sell them a couple as "pets".

[Fred's Fine Fowl]

Ok.. let's play their game now...

Farm animals not allowed in the city. That is, those classified as farm animals... I'd have to see the document to discern how it's specifically written. If it's based on those animals normally kept on farms for the purpose of eggs/produce/meat/or dairy... ?

Or, is it any animal traditionally associated with farming? Which would include work horse and animals with a utility purpose in older regulations, you'd also see oxen and so on.

Now... hmmm, chickens commonly kept on farms would be those kept for eggs, meat, or breeder flocks of the same.

What about fancy, ornamental breeds of the chicken? They have no practical farm use and are therefore not a farm animal. They were introduced and bred as lawn ornaments for large estates and castles... the Sultans were kept by Sultans... Phoenix were Palace Birds... these... to a point, are not farm animals.

There are many more under the fancy/ornamental category... but then, honestly, they would be poor producers for those who truly want a production oriented breed. I looked at the regulations in Kenosha, WI and found it so poorly written, that it actually excluded dogs and cats also.

It all goes back to the same issue... someone must complain before any city official is going to act on it. I heard a rooster crowing in Charleston, SC, everyone knew about "that family" no one had a problem with them.

Key West Florida has chickens running free... they are protected. There is even a man hired to collec/control the ferrel chicken population... he isn't any good at it if I may say so... so the chickens continue to cross the roads there.

I'd like to hear from the chicken "underground", has anyone actually been cited? Just curious

[MoniDew]

good point! I'm listening.

[plantoneonme]

I have a good friend who had a pet potbelly pig who she raised just as you would a dog. Kept Bella in the house and everything. The city went after her and stated she was a "farm animal" and made her get rid of her. Within 2 miles we had a lady who raised and dressed out rabbits for food but they let her go...she even advertised on a large sign in front of her house. I guess it is up to the city official to determine what is a farm animal...of course my friend did not have the money to fight this in court. A few years ago, my neighbor had a pet goat that we all knew about but because no one turned him in the goat stayed until it died a natural death from old age.

Our city has odd ordinances and are enforced according to who has a bug up his butt. If you have the time and in some cases money, you can win but they do make it difficult. One time we got a $250 citation for "parking on the lawn". Whoever drove through the neighborhood must have had a quota to meet or something since my daughter parked the car and a PORTION of one tire was on the grass. We went to court with pictures and won that one. Anyway, I am getting into a rant and had better quit for now.

Kim

[Fred's Fine Fowl]

Thanks Kim...

As you've shared, it all boils down to human nature and perception of what is and is not, appropriate.

Patti has, in my opinion, the ultimate example of how it "can" be done. Clean, orderly and well presented...

Stage two, is to invite, as Patti does, visitors from local schools and so on. This is primacy for elementary school kids, what they learn first, they learn best. If lots like Patti's are associated in the minds of our youth, with what it is to have small scale live stock, then it will be a positive.

On the flip side, if one first sees animals kept on dirty ground, under terrible conditions, accompanied with a foul smell? Then the opinion is quickly formed, that animals have no place in suburbia. An equally powerful first experience.

It's a tight rope of sorts... I have a neighbor 1000 yards away... she mentioned to me at a town gathering, that she was thinking of acting on that noise regulation. This was in regard to my flock of guineas (they can indeed be very noisy). I apologized to her and invited she and her husband over for a visit. Upon learning about the benefits of guineas... insect removal at the top of the list, including Japanese Beetles and ticks, she began to soften up a tad. Her husband, in his best interest, said nothing, though it was obvious that he really enjoyed the birds. They went home with fresh raw honey and a dozen free range eggs... I was happy to hear other neighbors expressing their delight at seeing the birds come and go, without disturbing plants or gardens... on the flip side, my immediate neighbor, probably 700 feet away, encourages the guineas to visit her land, by giving them wild bird seed.

Not everyone will want to have birds, bunnies, or goats on their own land, but, what parent would not want his or her child to learn of these traditional animals first hand? I tell you, those kids who visit Patti's, will n e v e r forget that.

We are shaping tomorrow's regulation today...

think about it

[Cynthia]

This is a very thoughtful thread. Thanks for all your insight

[MoniDew]

thank you Fred. You've given me much to think about!

[plantoneonme]

You are so right Fred. Patti does set the best example of what can be done. I'll bet that if one of her neighbor's tried the same and neglected the animals that not only the neighbor but Patti would have to give up her flock as well....you know that the one bad apple will destroy the good ones.

[Urbanhomesteader]

To be honest with you. My daughters and I bought Serama eggs on eBay, and hatched them. I LOVE them.. because they are super small, quiet, friendly. They lay "diet" size eggs.
Truth be told we have two Moluccan Cockatoos that are about twice as big as any Serama hen, and waaaaaaaaaaaay louder than a room full of hens. The laws don't always make sense. I too thought it was better to have "exotic" chickens that way I could maybe get by on a technicality. :)

[Urbanhomesteader]

Years ago when my children were small. I had 4 bantam hens .. two angora rabbits, also a pekin and a rouen duck. ALL of the neighborhood kids were always over at our house. A favorite activity was gathering eggs and making breakfast every Saturday morning. I visited all of the local schools with the animals. And actually had recieved an award for doing this. The vert day... I recieved the award ...when I came home there was a notice on my door, with an order to get rid of my ALL my animals. I was heart broken. It only takes ONE jerk to ruin everyone's fun. My house and yard are always orderly. I have a 6' wooden stockade fence. There was nothing wrong with the anything. And yet I had to get rid of the chickens and ducks. I argued for my rabbits. And kept them. That was 20+ years ago.
I started again with tiny Serama's about 3 years ago. This time.. I do it VERY carefully no one knows. I hate it, but I still have the same awful neighbor. :(

[Sinfonian]

Urbanhomesteader, you still have the same crotchety neighbor after 20+ years, WOW. That is too bad.

I can see both sides about the noise. We've got a new dog in the neighborhood. It wakes me up every morning far earlier than it should. So if my neighbor's birds did it, I would be annoyed also. Of course, if that same neighbor supplied me with eggs every so often, that'd soften me up.

That said, I was sure my city would be against chickens, but my brother, who also wants chickens, said it's fine. He's checked. Now we just have to work on our spouses, hehe. Running out of eggs today when she wanted "breakfast" for dinner, ought to help the cause. Little by little.

Great thread. And thanks Fred for all the anecdotes and insights.

[Urbanhomesteader]

Yup... the same person is still here. :) I think it has become a battle of the wills.. I've been here for 30 years, and he has been here for about 26. His wife detests animals. They poisoned all of the neighborhood cats who roamed into their yard. So you can imagine how much they "enjoy" me ;)

[Urbanhomesteader]

Ps...
Noise was not a factor. We had no 'roo's. He couldn't so much as see into my yard. Although he was caught peeking through the slats of the fence. :(

[Fred's Fine Fowl]

I suppose there are those Gladis Cravits types out there, who simply must know what's going on in everyone's life, yard and living room.
And of course, when they detect a law/regulation being broken, simply must do their civic duty and report it.

The very best approach, in my opinion, would be never to complain about those who act on active laws... communication would then close, rather than remain available for resolution. Sure, I understand, teens are smoking things and popping things at the city park, but they come after [I]your [I] chickens.

Problem is, they do have us by the hackles, if indeed we work outside the regulations in place. So, again only my opinion, we can concentrate on those who are open to suggestion and learning about the benefits... all the while, continuing to be a good neighbor. It's warfare... and the battle ground is the mind.

I had a mother come to me, ready to spit tacks, because her 8 year old had come home saying "Mr. Dunn said I could have a chicken".... "Did YOU tell my daughter she could have a CHICKEN?!!"... Well, she asked me, why would I say no? As far as my end is concerned... she may choose from my entire flock, although, if it is your position, that your wonderful and curious daughter should be deprived of a valuable in hand learning experience during her formative years? Who am I to interfere with that? I mean, it's your right, she's your daughter after all... park her in front of the TV, oh, give her a cell phone.. no wait... um, there is of course the bright spot in the future, when she brings up how you stood in the way of her opportunity to have pet chickens, at a time in her life when that was actually possible. Ya, I could completely understand why you would not want her to know about egg nutrition, life cycles, the needs of another living thing and how to provide them.. you're right. I'm sorry... it's your decision after all, she's your daughter... I simply said, from my end, that if she were allowed, she certainly could have a chicken (preferrably two or three)...

I said this all in a steady even flow of fast paced verbage... because I'm funny like that...

I could see the mother trying to remain angry.. indignant... but her frown turned to a side smirk while I spoke... then a look of resignation swept her face as she looked down at those hopeful blue eyes...

They have chickens now and a small battle has been won. But, I'm a little funny and humor helps. Honestly though, I've used a similar approach with another parent, with no gains made at all... soooo, the comprimise was, that that particular child could come here to visit chickens, rather than keep their own.

Where regulations do not currently address chickens? I would suggest composing and presenting one which provides guidelines for backyard poultry owners. This will cut off most plans to simply post a ban on all poultry. Share and educate as much as possible and it doesn't hurt to make friends of your city/town officials. Know some 18 yr old High School seniors looking for a project? Inacting a regulation could be just the ticket. What a great experience/resume piece that would be?

oops.. I'm late

[gardengirl72]

That is essentially how I live. My animals are the neighborhood weekend fun time. I am lucky that all my neighbors are supportive. Otherwise I would be in trouble.

Lots of trouble.

[Urbanhomesteader]

Thanks to people like Patti... Time's they are a changin'! I'm hopeful as people learn more.. they will become more open minded.

Please forgive me if you have answered this somewhere else.. I just haven't found it yet. Getting back to my "vermin" question..

How do Patti and others deal with the question of mice/rats.. ? This will be the first thing out of people's mouths.... "How are you going to keep rats away from your animals?".. blah blah blah.. I never had any problems because I keep things ultra clean.. and keep food etc.. in safe places (metal covered garbage cans etc) But in working towards changing the ordinances.. I'd really like to know how to handle people with health concerns.
Thank you for any help you can give me.

[gardengirl72]

Well, this is my sixth year raising chickens and I too had a vermin problem. Fred will tell you, I sent him all sorts of emails about it. Mice aren't really a problem, chickens will eat the small ones, it's the rats you have to worry about.

Last winter my husband had a stroke and it put everything off kilter. I had a friend feed my livestock while I nursed him back to health(he's fine now, don't worry). In the process, my birds were never rotated and feed was strewn all over the place and a colony of rats moved in.

It was awefull. My cats easily handled the small ones, but the big ones were too much, even for my cat Pete. So after cleaning up the waste and getting the place clean I began testing every method of eradication. For me it was a great, but nasty experiment.

First I tried trapping. That didn't work.
Then I tried hunting them. (pellet gun and dog, that worked but only partially)
Finally the only thing that worked was a bait and switch poisoning, which made me feel terrible, but worked like a charm and erradicated them completely and they haven't been back.

I wish I could report that some sort of organic method worked, but the City Rat is no joke and I had to resort to drastic measures.

So, I had five years with no problems, and then two months of war. My cats have everything else back under control now. I hope this helps, I have been rodent free for eighteen months.

[Urbanhomesteader]

I can just imagine my "Gladys Cravits" (I've just renamed him.. thank you Fred!) neighbor watching me hunt rats with a bb gun.. He'd call the police on me for sure! Yikes!

What is bait and switch method? Is just keeping everything clean enough to keep the rats away? To my knowledge I have never had a rat around my yard/home. I'm told they will dig under a fence before going over one.. I never saw any dig holes. ?? Any info is most welcomed.

I'm so glad that your husband is better! What a horrible thing for him to have to go through!

[gardengirl72]

Bait and switch is pretty simple. The pesky monsters get used to feeding from the same spot in a chicken cage, trust me they can get into anything. So when you rotate and move the cage you just keep putting feed in the space where the monsters were. Then you mix in some poison and three days later they crawl out and die in front of your mother in law. My neighborhood is and has been infested for years. Twice rats swam up my plumbing into my toilet (before I had livestock) and presented themselves to me live in the flesh. Horrible. The same thing has happened to most of me neighbors, especially when there is heavy duty construction nearby.

My major problem was when there was too much feed all over the place due to neglect. So if you keep it clean and own a cat you should be fine. Rodents hate cats and will avoid them, mostly.