Critters in the City/Suburbs?

[Anna_G]

Hello, all. I live in in a suburb outside Cleveland, OH. I love the concept of raising animals to improve the soil, provide food such as eggs, and the use of their coats to make quality fiber...but here's my problem. My research has turned up that my municipality, as well as that of the city of Cleveland (and a few other suburbs that I would consider moving to in the future) have ordinances against raising livestock, rabbits (as pets within a residence only), goat, chickens (poultry) within city limits. Patti, how do you get around this issue? Does Boston not have these type of regulations? Does anyone else have experience with this dilemma? As I'm in the research and design stage of setting up my own suburban sustainable home, I'd appreciate any input or advice. Thanks for reading!
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[WendyB]

Anna,

I was going to ask if the ordinance prohibited all fowl, including ducks and guinea fowl, both of which can be wonderful on an urban homestead for egg production and pest control (although guineas are loud from what I understand). If it does, I wouldn't try to "get around" it, although in her book Possum Living Dolly Freed talks about keeping chickens and rabbits in her basement, and so that might be an option.

BUT ....

The BEST option is to approach your city council about having the law changed. It can be done. Two recent cases, one in South Portland, Maine (http://www.sailzora.com/SoPoChickens.htm) and the other across the continent in Spokane, Washington (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333174_goat26.html) resulted in changing the ordinances to allow chickens (in Maine) and goats (in Washington).

It's certainly not an easy thing to contemplate doing, but as the urban/suburban homesteading movement gains momentum, it's likely that your neighbors will start to get interested in doing the same thing. You might find yourself with a lot of company.

Good luck to you :).

[gardengirl72]

Anna,

Everything I want to do is illegal. Joel Salatin, a hero of mine, came up with that one. Yes it is illegal here as well. The thing is, it is only a problem if you do it badly and someone complains. These laws were to protect animals from living in horrible conditions. So I have all my neighbors completely bought off and they are my best customers now.

My very first eggs were given to my neighbors. If a rooster shows up, he goes to the pot, and I never let smells or flies build up. I open up a farmstand now on the weekends, when I feel like it, and made $1800 dollars selling my produce, fiber and started plants. Most importantly, my city councillor now refers to me as "His Farmer". This hiding in plain site took years to develop, but the key has been giving away a lot of food as way of creating "adicts" to my produce.

[AbbeyLehman]

Hello, all. I live in in a suburb outside Cleveland, OH. I love the concept of raising animals to improve the soil, provide food such as eggs, and the use of their coats to make quality fiber...but here's my problem. My research has turned up that my municipality, as well as that of the city of Cleveland (and a few other suburbs that I would consider moving to in the future) have ordinances against raising livestock, rabbits (as pets within a residence only), goat, chickens (poultry) within city limits. Patti, how do you get around this issue? Does Boston not have these type of regulations? Does anyone else have experience with this dilemma? As I'm in the research and design stage of setting up my own suburban sustainable home, I'd appreciate any input or advice. Thanks for reading!

Hi Anna_G, I am from Cleveland as well! I am inside city limits, and as far as I knew keeping small livestock was NOT illegal, as long as certain limits were exercised....Am I not looking in the right spots? Do you have links or any other research I could get my hands on? I intend to have them anyway, especially since a neighbor has at a MINIMUM 2 roosters--the whole neighborhood can hear them! :) Plus, we had a hen and a chick visit us for almost a week straight about 2 months ago, and I think they belonged to that same neighbor.

Thanks!

[RedStateGreen]

Our HOA prohibits any livestock or poultry, so I got angora rabbits. They live in my kitchen (actually, the space is supposed to be a breakfast nook but we never got a dinette set for it), mainly because everyone else in the family insisted they not be forced to live outside ... :rolleyes: :D

[gardengirl72]

Red State Green,

Have you litter box trained them? I want more details on the bunnies in the kitchen. Are they caged, and if so what type do you use.

Thanks, P

[Golem in the Gears]

Meh... Best to just be discreet, when it comes to things like this... as long as you keep things small and under the radar you probably wont have any problems. When I got busted by code enforcement for my chickens "a nosey neighbor called" They insisted that I removed them in 7 days or be fined a couple hundred dollars, so I started emailing my city code enforcement to try an obtain a copy of the actual written ordinance where it said I couldn't have chickens in my area... I was told basically that there was no ordinance that said I couldn't have chickens.. But that ordinances are not written to tell you what you can't do, but to tell you what you can do! and sense there was no ordinance saying that I could have chickens that I could not have them! :( so I was forced to move them to my shop or be fined! We are not dealing with the brightest bulbs in the box, best to not go fooling around with them folks unless you have to.

[Golem in the Gears]

I also wanted to add... Even know I did submit and moved my chickens to my shop, I do not readily accept defeat... So I went and got me some cortunix Quail :) these little guys are great, can be housed inside and take up very little space, they are prolific breeders and layers (about 300 eggs a year), After just 16 days in the incubator and then 5-6 weeks from hatch they are laying, breeding and ready for the grill! The only animal I can think of used in backyard food production that out produces rabbits! And are just as easy to care for... check em out.

[AbbeyLehman]

Golem,

How does the cost efficiency compare between the chickens and the quail? How many quail does it take to feed a family of four? Details, details!!

[Golem in the Gears]

takes about 10 birds give or take for a family of four. 4 quail eggs are about equal to a large chicken egg, An average six-ounce skinless quail contains about 123 calories, 40 percent of the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of protein, 50 percent niacin, 30 percent vitamin B6, and 28 percent of iron. The same bird has only 1.2 grams of saturated fat, 1.2 grams monounsaturated fat, 1.1 grams polyunsaturated fat, and 64 grams of cholesterol. I recommend starting off with a dozen breeders with a 3:1 female/male ratio, this seems to be the standard and works well.. depending on your incubating skills you can expect a 50% hatch rate on average in the incubator, you can also use a broody bantam to do the hatching if your inclined to do so.. Coturnix quail rarely ever go broody so plan on having a steady flow of eggs in the incubator , 16 days in the incubator and 6 weeks in the grow out pen so 58 days total from incubator to diner plate, if you get on average 7 eggs a day from your breeders and you collect and incubate every 8 days, with a 50% hatch rate thats 28 birds every 8 days thats roughly 1175 birds a year divided by 52 weeks and your looking at 20+ birds a week give or take... I'll just guesstimate at food cost because it really isn't enough that I've ever payed much attention.. but for a doz. birds id guess 200 lbs. of food a year, at an average cost of 15$ per. 50lbs. thats 60$ a year give or take a few bucks... you start em out on quality chick/game-bird starter for the first 4 weeks then switch em to grower feed for the last two, supplement with calcium for a good strong shell blah blah blah.. same as chickens basically but much smaller time frame.

[AbbeyLehman]

So, do you find that the extra work (if you do it yourself) of cleaning the smaller birds is worth it? I mean, you can do one chicken or 10 quail--it appears--on the surface--to someone has hasn't yet raised chickens that it would be "easier" (even if slighter more expensive) to raise a clean a chicken as opposed to 10 quail. Please correct me if I'm making erroneous assumptions, here! I realize that 2 months is better than longer, so maybe that is the payoff--quicker turnaround?

On a side note, how does it taste? I've never had it, so compare for me, please!

Thank you for the brain pickings! LOL

[RedStateGreen]

Red State Green,

Have you litter box trained them? I want more details on the bunnies in the kitchen. Are they caged, and if so what type do you use.

Thanks, P
I made a hutch inside. If you look at the photos I put in the Pictures section, you'll see it.

It's kind of jury-rigged but it works :D

[Golem in the Gears]

So, do you find that the extra work (if you do it yourself) of cleaning the smaller birds is worth it? I mean, you can do one chicken or 10 quail--it appears--on the surface--to someone has hasn't yet raised chickens that it would be "easier" (even if slighter more expensive) to raise a clean a chicken as opposed to 10 quail. Please correct me if I'm making erroneous assumptions, here! I realize that 2 months is better than longer, so maybe that is the payoff--quicker turnaround?

On a side note, how does it taste? I've never had it, so compare for me, please!

Thank you for the brain pickings! LOL

Cortunix require no more care than chickens do ...but they mature faster, produce more eggs, need less food and space, and have more uses than chickens, 10 Cortunix can be dressed out in about the same time it takes to dress out a chicken and it's really not much more work at all and Coturnix will produce 1lbs. of eggs on slightly less than 2lbs. of feed..where as chickens need almost 3lbs... I do love my chickens tho, they have such wonderful personalities :) Like most fowl they do taste like chicken but you really have to try them to understand the difference.

[plantoneonme]

I found the quail quite interesting and may look into them in the future...thanks for sharing. One question though, do they make a lot of noise?

I cannot see why keeping a few rabbits for food would be a big deal in the city. You cannot get turned in by the neighbors because of noise ;). I plan on getting a couple does and a buck and let them do their business. We raised rabbits when my son was young and kept them in a "playpen" during the summer (guess you'd call it a rabbit tractor now). I know of people who raise them completely in pens in a shed but I think they are happier where they can hop around, dig and graze a bit.

A good place to learn is from a kid in 4H who is raising rabbits. Let me tell you those kids know their stuff! You can may also be able to buy rabbits from them that are not good enough to show but plenty good to eat.

[AbbeyLehman]

...A good place to learn is from a kid in 4H who is raising rabbits. Let me tell you those kids know their stuff! You can may also be able to buy rabbits from them that are not good enough to show but plenty good to eat.

What a wonderful idea!! Thank you! Now to find someone around here...

[Golem in the Gears]

plantoneonme... The Coturnix are very quiet, the hens have a soft whistle/chirp thing they do and the males do crow but its not like a rooster crow! it's more of a peep/sneeze type sound and is also not to loud.. no more noisy than a couple parakeets and much, much quieter than chickens.. I've seen folks keep a trio of females and a male housed in a 55 gal. aquarium! was really pretty nifty and the birds seemed to like it just fine...
I also raise rabbits for the table, I have 2 doe's and a buck that I purchased from a 360 doe meat rabbit/worm farm, The owners where very nice folks and gave me a very detailed tour of their operation which I enjoyed immensely! I cant wait to go back and get my worm stock from them, maybe another buck :)

[plantoneonme]

Thanks for the reply Golem. If I didn't want the birds for meat only eggs, will hens lay without a male? A couple in cages I might talk dh into. Kim

[Golem in the Gears]

Yup.. But! Unlike chickens, quail are only good layers for about a year and their natural life span is only like 3 years and egg production drops significantly after the first 8 months of laying, so the only real way to go IMHO is full scale :) good part is you can do it all in a very small space.. a 5-6 tiered battery of cages will do the job nicely.. I just relocated to this spot and Im so not all together yet but once I get all my cages hung and put back together I will post some pic's of my setup... I guess if your just uncertain and wanted to give em a whirl you could get some eggs, hatch em, raise em up for the 6 weeks, cull the males, and enjoy a 8 month supply of fresh quail eggs BUT! Im betting a dollar to a donut your ordering more eggs before the 8 months are up ;)

[plantoneonme]

You are probably right. Can you direct me to information on how to go about all the above? I have never raised any form of bird other than a store bought parakeet. Also where can I get started...as in an honest person to purchase from? Thanks Kim

[Golem in the Gears]

I sure can :) The dudes over at Aquaponics HQ forums have a very good thread on Japanese Coturnix quail and GaryD who has been raising them for much longer than I have is super friendly and knowledgeable, so I certainly recommend you go over there and check out the thread... There is also a very good article in backwoods home magazine By Allen Easterly called raising quail... and of course I will be happy to answer any questions I can, and what I cant I'm sure I can ferret out online. As for suppliers check out your local feed stores, farm-stands, ask hunters and such as they are a game bird, also check craigs list "thats where i got started" if you don't have any luck with those there are a number of hatcheries that sell hatching eggs..Ebay too.. like anything else all you can do is read, read, read then do... they are really easy birds to care for, good thing is... if you try and come to the conclusion that they just aren't right for you..You can just eat the little suckers and be done with it :D

[plantoneonme]

Sorry Abbey I feel like I hijacked your post. If you would like me to start one for quail I will.

One more question for Golem...

What do you recommend as an incubator for say a dozen or so eggs at a time? Is this too small or should it be somewhat larger?

Kim

[Golem in the Gears]

Can't say, some folks prefer to build their own.. and if your handy and wanna save some cash I say give it a go, there's a DIY article over at Mother Earth News thats pretty good.. If you do decide to buy one then I recommend you purchase a Circulated Air model.. probably gonna run ya $200-$250! and hold around 180 more eggs than your looking to hatch lol shop around, flea markets, yard sales, feed stores,craigs list, ebay, 4H clubs, ask at your local grade schools also, many time's teachers will buy a small 3-4 egg incubator for a school project only to discover it's more trouble than its worth and it wine's up in a closet somewhere..

[Backyard Permaculture]

Joel Salatin is a hero of mine also Patty

Having grown up in the city, I have raised chickens by the hundreds, including roosters and operated a backyard hatchery. I have also raised ducks, a steer, kept bees, had a milk goat, raised and butchered a pig, experimented with raising fish for food (Tilapia).

I have had 2 run ins with animal control officers, and they were both very educational.

My ex wife and I owned a little house with a good sized backyard in an older subdivision in Mesa AZ, where I had 55 chickens in my backyard, of which about 15 were roosters, a milk goat and 2 beehives. One of the hives swarmed, which for those who don't know, is how a hive "reproduces" itself. A bee colony is like a living being, and the bees are like "cells" each with a job and function, but the hive is the center of everything. If a colony doesn't reproduce, eventually it will die out. But when bees swarm, it is to start a new colony and the bees are not aggressive, just looking for a new home.

Anyway, one of the hives swarmed. I captured the swarm with no problem, but unknown to me, the neighbors panicked and called animal control. The animal control officer came to investigate, went into my backyard and looked at everything there. He told me that city ordinances prohibited my having bees, that I would have to move them. He also said the city allowed up to 10 hens, no roosters and no goats, but as long as noone complained, there was no problem.

There is the Key. Keep your animals from being an anoyance to your neighbors and you could keep a zebra in your yard.

The next incident occurred years later. I had just bought a nubian doeling for milking. I lived in a typical 1/5 acre residential lot, had about 25 chickens and 2 ducks. We went away for a couple of days, and Keith, my good next door neighbor took care of my critters while we were away. Just when we got back, up rolled the animal control officer. She said someone had complained that I had animals in my yard. I told her I had chickens and a goat She asked if it was a full sized goat or a miniature type. I said a full sized goat, and she said I would have to get rid of her. She said a mini type goat is considered an exotic animal, and not livestock.

So the doeling went to stay at my mom's house. I looked around for a couple of weeks, and found a pygmy doe, bought her, and since she wasn't milking as of yet, she went to my mom's house also to keep the other goat company and wait until breeding and delivering.

Then things changed in my life. My wife and I separated, and I went to live at my mom's house.

After the divorce, my chickens, duck ( the female died while at mom's) and the 2 goats moved here to St David AZ.

Advice for keeping goats in the city, go with another breed than the Nubian. They are known for being the noisiest breed. Some friends have a Saanen and say they are much more quiet and docile.

Since moving to St David, I remarried a 6' tall lady from Venezuela.

Love the Spanish people, language and culture.

Saludos a todos

Ron

[Golem in the Gears]

I caught my "neighbor" ( He lives behind the house across the street from me) in a tree with a pair of binoculars looking over my 6 ft. privacy fence, next day code enforcements there with a complaint about chickens? I have 4 hen's, no roosters and my yard is completely fenced... Some folks just got nothing better to do. I guess It's all my fault that it went down like it did tho... If I had just grabbed my chain-saw on the way out the door :D

[AbbeyLehman]

Sorry Abbey I feel like I hijacked your post. If you would like me to start one for quail I will.

One more question for Golem...

What do you recommend as an incubator for say a dozen or so eggs at a time? Is this too small or should it be somewhat larger?

Kim

Not my thread, actually....got any info on Cleveland codes, though??? :D

[Anna_G]

To my neighbor, Abby Lehman, here is the actual ordinance I found via the City of Cleveland's website of codified ordinances:

205.02 Nuisance Conditions

No person shall keep or harbor any animal or fowl in the City so as to create noxious or offensive odors or unsanitary conditions which are a menace to the health, comfort or safety of the public.
(Ord. No. 511-76. Passed 6-14-76, eff. 6-18-76)

There are a couple more related to livestock...but upon close inspection, it seems like unless someone complains about the noise, smell, or animals that are in their yard or a public place (like the park), you can have chickens and such in Cleveland! Yea! Unfortunately for me, there is an ordinance on the books here in Mayfield Heights that specifically forbades "the owning of any fowl," and goes into detail. (It's ordinance # 517.19).

Thanks so much for joining this conversation! I'm thrilled to chat with someone else in my area that obviously has similar interests. Best of luck with all your backyard endeavors!
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[Anna_G]

Thank you so much, to Patti and every one who replied to my post and questions. It helps to hear first hand how you've all dealt with this situation and inspires me to keep at it. :)
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[RogueAPBT]

Golem, that's too bad about your "neighbor". Some people need to get a life of their own!

Anna, I wonder if you can get away with banties and say they're exotic pets? Say they're show birds or something. Also, you could just go for it and try to keep it on the sly. If nobody knows, they can't complain, and worst case, they tell you to "quit it".

Ron, how about pygmy goats? Those little things seem to be making noise nonstop every time I see them. Didn't know that about nubians being noisy.

Cheryl

[gardengirl72]

I can see why we have these kinds of laws, I just think we have too many laws, and feeding your family in clean and sanitary ways shouldn't be a problem. I am just a public dissenter.

[mariaclarke]

this has very much upset me I live in a rural area of nj I have 1 bunny, 2 hens, a dog and 2 cats ,and wanted to get 3 or 4 more hens next year. I found out that unless I am legally a farm I can not have chickens at all .:(my property is closer to the down town if you can call it are down town area I do have a little over .25 acre and it is all fenced in.most of my neighbors know I have hens and my yard is very clean so hopefully I get no on complaining....Maria:cool:

[gardengirl72]

Arcane Zoning(don't worry energy prices will change the laws). Don't worry, keep your neighbors well "bribed" and you will be fine.

[Sinfonian]

Interesting thread. My neighbor likely poisoned three 40 year old crdar trees of mine to improve the sun exposure in his yard. Doubt I could keep it secret. Good thing my brother wants chickens and supposedly checked with the city and its fine. Yay! If only my wife would go for it hehe.

[gardengirl72]

What did your neighbor do?

[Fred's Fine Fowl]

I'm going to address Anna's original question here...

Just so happens that my dear Mother lives in Cleveland, at the water front. She sends me all things poultry and Chicken related (">

In the Plain Dealer (a Cleveland Publication) Saturday, August 30, 2008
HENS
Chicken Farms Spring up in Cities.

Cleveland just had a hearing... there is apparently a vacant lot, which was converted into green space, complete with chickens. In 2005-2006 this activity generated 50 calls to the police from "concerned citizens".... the Police had no ordinance to enforce, so the lot continues...

In 2007, no police calls were placed.

60 residents attended the zoning variance meeting to support the farm and chickens.

The Cleveland Auction Company overlooks the green space (with chickens) which had been a parking lot. The owners love the transition!

Cleveland is headed in the same direction as other chicken friendly cities, such as Portland Oregon and Houston.

Want support for your city chicken ventures? Need to know how to address current regs. regarding keeping poutlry?

Visit www.thecitychicken.com and/or www.backyardchickens.com

For those of you trying to be sly about it? I'd just get a rare breed and consider it an exotic bird.. hens only of course... one woman raises Suramas in her kitchen (worlds smallest chicken)... treats them like parakeets in a huge hanging cage by the window.

When people mention basement set ups for the long-term? I get concerned about air quality and general environmental (indoor) health.

In Vermont, my mother was raised with cows, chickens and the like, connected to the house, hay loft, with animals below... many people want to head that way again.

Chicken haters will want to get you under separate ordinances... noise, smell or general cleanliness/sanitation issues. Think clean, quiet and tidy... Patti has the right idea, bribe your neighbors with fresh eggs.

I say no to the guineas in the city... VERY loud... I have 30 or more and until they spread out in the mornings, I almost can't stand the noise myself.
They can also fly over any fence and go roof top to roof top. I have a neighbor 1000 feet away.. every now and again, I can hear him cursing the birds from here... but his wife likes them :}

[Kanthaka]

I notice this thread hasn't been active for a while but I'm new here as well as a first time urban chicken keeper.
Just wanted to remind those who are keeping chickens in the city that we are by no means free from predators. I live in Erie, PA very close to downtown and there is no shortage of raccoons, skunks and opossums. Even coyotes are established in two city parks within walking distance of my home. Wildlife abounds in the hood so all predator precautions apply!